Scal's Forum
Mugen Museum => Free talk => Topic started by: electrocaid on January 19, 2014, 10:10:10 AM
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Hi dudes
a small but very important question: how to stay tuned about new releases?
years ago, i had a list of newsites to check everyday to be sure to got all relases but now, the majority of them are down
apart the mugen fighter's guild forums, what sites can you advise me?
edit
so we have here (my personnal reminder, lol):
http://mugenguild.com/forum/your-releases-older-mugen.309
http://mugenguild.com/forum/your-releases-1-0.359
http://www.infinitymugenteam.com/Forum_345/index.php?board=8.0
http://www.infinitymugenteam.com/Forum_345/index.php?board=65.0
http://www.infinitymugenteam.com/Forum_345/index.php?board=42.0
http://www.infinitymugenteam.com/Forum_345/index.php?board=88.0
http://www.infinitymugenteam.com/Forum_345/index.php?board=16.0
http://mugenfreeforall.com/index.php?/forum/32-news/
http://mugenfreeforall.com/index.php?/forum/33-releases/
http://mugenfreeforall.com/index.php?/forum/122-edits/
http://mugenfreeforall.com/index.php?/forum/25-screenpacks/
http://mugenfreeforall.com/index.php?/forum/71-full-games/
http://mugenfreeforall.com/forum/13-characters/
http://www.newagemugen.com/f12-mugen-1-1
https://qxmugen.com/resource/character
https://tweettunnel.com/mk90034551
https://twitter.com/hashtag/MUGEN%E6%9B%B4%E6%96%B0%E6%83%85%E5%A0%B1?src=hash
https://cafe.naver.com/mugenrevolution
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AEBGJEgByX8v7RU&id=4FE334FA93A06B3C%21105&cid=4FE334FA93A06B3C
http://mugenarchive.com/forums/downloads.php?do=cat&id=1
https://plus.google.com/116310549251973341600
https://plus.google.com/108179190083455005609
http://tier-1.co/index.php
http://tier-1.co/index.php/board,5.0.html
http://tier-1.co/index.php/board,7.0.html
http://mugenchara.blog.shinobi.jp/
http://www.2diyer.com/forum.php?mod=forumdisplay&fid=14&page=1
http://www.mugeno.com/
http://www.2diyer.com/forum.php?mod=forumdisplay&fid=17
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Well in all honesty I personally think IMT news is the best one atm in terms of the amount of content. MFFA has slower news reported mostly by the staff that would go unseen by other forums. Those are the best. What I do is take from them both and find out about new stuff myself. Unfortunately(and Fortunately lol) I quickly learned theres a lot of unreported stuff that has been getting released in smaller lesser known forums, through youtube, nico nico, and just random foreign website exclusive material since I came back to Mugen a few months ago.
So I would say Check up on IMT & MFFA. I personally find everything new myself through people and rechecking my databases daily to see if something new popped up. Maybe someone else can suggest something better though.
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I recommend 2diyer.
(about Japanese release.)
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thanks a lot for your advices my friend
i know that times have changed & that, now, ppl are using social networks for releasing their creations but... i now have a better idea of the situation ;)
maybe that we should think to open a true global mugen news site, like Sammas' one, years a ago...?
edit
oooooh shit, you were too right: i'm discovering tons of new stuff ....
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thanks a lot for your advices my friend
i know that times have changed & that, now, ppl are using social networks for releasing their creations but... i now have a better idea of the situation ;)
maybe that we should think to open a true global mugen news site, like Sammas' one, years a ago...?
edit
oooooh shit, you were too right: i'm discovering tons of new stuff ....
It wouldn't be a bad idea to open a site like that, in fact I was thinking of doing something like that on my own site. The only issue is that it is a lot of work for one person to consistently report accurate information. Also who do you mean by "we"?
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Currently, this is the best mugen site concept for sure...
&, yes, of course, this represents a lot of work
---> it would be great to gather a maximum of ppl to report news
but first, we need a structure for reporting :P
does someone have an idea?
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Hello, Hello! My friends! :) :)
That's a good idea.
but Time is precious.
Check work is not automatable.
Therefore, we have to check.
The world of MUGEN is too large, like universe!
I thnik,
If you want walk, many cooperators will be required.
and
classific by country(or langage?)
You have to carry out staffs assignment according to density.
http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=mugen#cat=0-8&q=mugen&cmpt=q
but!
Rule of Japan Local:
1. If the file is now available by creator, we should look for it by yourself.
2. We have to follow the distribution rule which the creator defined.
Therefore
A Japanese news forum does not exist!
Japanese people are not taught the direct link of a file!
I do not have an any idea about this problem. :(
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Mud Jellyfish put it very said. Like he said, for a Global Mugen News site we need many collaborators and from different nationalities or that can speak a certain language. For example I also speak fluent Spanish and can easily find everything new that comes from multiple Spanish speaking forums. Regardless it's one of easiest languages to understand anyhow. Also if Hayonik would be interested, I'm pretty sure he speaks Portuguese which would be a very big help as well.
The big issue is with the Chinese and Korean releases. Some releases are very difficult to acquire(or impossible) to the non-korean speaking through cafe-naver. I've missed quite a few releases from this so far. Also as Mud Jellyfish said it would be difficult for him to put release news from Japan as he is not able to link directly. You should ask Phantom Blood if he would be Interested as he is one of the biggest news reporters on MFFA alongside V-Nix. V-Nix is a great collector of foreign mugen data, maybe you could get in touch with him as well. We would need some type of calling to legitimate and dedicated mugen data collectors.
Edit: Also by News on IMT and MFFA I meant these sections.
http://www.infinitymugenteam.com/Forum_345/index.php?board=16.0
http://mugenfreeforall.com/index.php?/forum/32-news/
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thanks scourgesplitter! ;D
yeah!
It is a difficult problem! :-\
For example:
http://mugenguild.com/forum/msg.1894257
(Phantom Blood is well-informed person ;))
I fear a trouble.
Japanese people fear a trouble, too.
(Especially between friend)
maybe we called it "和(WA)".
I respect your work.
So, I wish a trouble does not occur with Japanese people.
It may cause fatal wound. (for our work)
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Dear friend,
for answering by order:
- Yes, time is a problem but it already was the case years ago, when i "retired" ---> it's hard but possible, for example by splitting the tasks by volunteer
- Various languages used by creators don't help but, once again, this isn't impossible to do with
- Stats about searches are very impressive. The results may have been caused by the appearance of new creation tools ---> the number of creations raised massively ----> people find more easily a decent conversion of a lot of datas ---> the need of news decreased with years
- "Japanese" rules do already exist years ago & there wasn't any problem: it's possible to report a news & to provide non direct links...
- About Chinese and Korean releases... i'm not used with them because they were rare 3 years ago (only a few korean ones if i'm correct) ---> chinese is more difficult for me. But, before anything else: don't they have their own newssites or forums?
- The idea of getting in touch with well-known members, for legitimating our action, is excellent! I can also ask to Nunor, who's a friend of mine ;) . I've also met the current webmaster of MFFA... but for "legitimating" something, i'm not sure that he's the one ;D
- hereabove reminder updated: thanks!
- about the unauthorized updates: here again, no problem ---> either we don't report'em at all or we report it in a private place for us :)
the first question is still "what about the needed structure (website/forum) ?"
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dear friends,
i'm back from my bed with an idea...
why couldn't we use http://web.archive.org/web/20070306071656/http://www.geocities.com/oolongv2002/MUGENbookmarks.htm? as base & main project?
i mean, from this base, we could list all
- active sites
- active forum
- dead sites & forum, with direct link to the archived site...
& everytime an author releases something, we put his site on the top of the list ;D
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Thats actually a very interesting idea but, not all authors have their own websites like I stated earlier. It would be a very nice website database that would serve a double purpose for news. Matter of fact, Mugenguild has a very large Creator website database (http://network.mugenguild.com/guild/creators.html) but, this one could be 100x better as we would also be able to list much more dead sites/forums which would serve a great purpose for people who want to file hunt.
Thinking about the site structure, Sammas just used a regular Freewebs site to do his job very efficiently. A forum would be a little simpler to correct mistakes on or add content to. In order to decide the structure we need to think about how maybe members can contribute to the news on the spot or if just have a system where multiple people send information to one person organizes it and lists it all without errors. These are the 2 systems I'm thinking about.
I don't mind a forum but, in my personal opinion I would prefer a nice website. You clearly have more experience with html & CSS than me Electrocaid since you put together Fanatic Mugen & Mugen Museum. Infact the news reporting you were doing on Mugen Museum with Dadou & Marvin was nice itself. If you could do something where specific members are able to edit the page to add news that would be great. Unfortunately though, with a regular website you would still be forced to provide a forum regardless because if by chance people want to post their own releases there.
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This topic is a little too difficult for me! :-\
How to say.... ???
I can only say this.
Nothing is as important as health!
It is almost time to sleep.
Good night friends! :)
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hahaha for the very philosophical comment of Mud Jellyfish
concerning scourgesplitter's comment's:
- Yes, of course, a website would be better than a forum
- but No, i'm not used at all with site coding: Fanatic Mugen has been created by Dadou if i'm correct (& maybe with the help of Pegasus Husky but surely not mine...)
---> that's still our main problem ;D
(nb: i can't decently ask to Scal to care about this: he's already very busy (partly because of me.... :-X ) )
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First and foremost, Hello. :)
Personally I'm fond of forums since as stated, it'd help fix mistakes and add content. However, a nice site at least on the front would be best for something like this. I'm sure there are plenty of web templates, but perhaps someone with html/css knowledge would be helpful with that idea.
Assuming everything goes well, what sort of format would news be archived in? Just date? Categories? How in-depth would the categories be? The basics like chars,stages,lifebars,screenpacks? or more stuff like edits,fullgames,color separation patches, soundpatches, etc?
Scourge, you also mentioned members contributing(well finding a way to have them contribute); I think having just anyone add stuff will become problematic due to misinformation or improper formatting. There would need to be someone assigned to adding those things, but not just ONE person. It'd be time consuming, and just a pain after a while having one person do it. It' also good to keep in mind that personal lives and worldly troubles do happen and that's when that one person could face problems.
I know I'm sorta repeating certain things but wanted to add my input on this.
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welcome aboard dude!
thanks for your interest in this project
i'm not qualified concerning the technical aspects of the structure
however, the main purpose of the project - if we stay reasonable - is first to indicate where to go to find new mugen stuff
one thing is sure: only one person cannot assume the whole job
for avoiding the problem you mentionned, it's only about selecting the ppl able to post news
we're all here gentlemen
gentlemen with personnal access codes is enough to solve the problem ;)
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@Genesis: Thanks for joining up man, you gave awesome input. Infact so much so, with what you've said now it's all starting to come together.
What you and Electrocaid said is very true, having anyone post can result in major problems, yet at the same time one person can't assume the duty all himself. So if were thinking of access codes, speaking with my limited knowledge in html(testmugen) I think, until we find someone who can properly do web design, a forum(for now at least) in a technical perspective would most likely be the easiest path to take in regards to member privileges. At the same time regardless of the technical aspects we need to decide exactly what this website/forum will consist of.
As you said Electrocaid; the main purpose is to provide news of new mugen data. Genesis made good points in how the news should probably follow some type of format when being archived. I was originally thinking that it should all be clumped together but, this traditional way maybe might not be the best. What attracts people to a website is organization, the human mind is naturally more inclined to be interested in something that is user friendly and clean looking(or so they say). So as of right now the only section I'm thinking of is the news section(main section). Does anyone have any other site content in mind?
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why woulnd't we use a kind of RSS signal to inform ppl? 8)
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why woulnd't we use a kind of RSS signal to inform ppl? 8)
Thats Brilliant.
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RSS is great. :) Honestly that's how i keep up with certain new releases even now haha
I know it's still early, but are there any name ideas for this news site?
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YW concerning the idea but i don't know how to create that :-\
about the name, why not U.A.O.? for "united as one"? ;D ;D ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_iU-9Y3D9s
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Sounds pretty nice to me. I had a few in mind but, when I looked back at them I felt they were a little corny.
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I like U.A.O.
What were your other ideas scourge? out of curiosity
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Like I said corny...Mugen One, Daily Mugen, Upper Mugen... lol
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if i may: without structure, no need to find a name, lol ;D
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So can we agree for just now the only section were worrying about is just news?
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if i'm correct, we're talking only about a news site...
i'm not against the idea of adding other subjects to the structure but the first purpose, for me, is to gather world news
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Well, i think naturally a community would spawn from this.
As it is now, many people have trouble finding mugen "homes" (many people dislike MFG, and may not feel like they "fit in" elsewhere)
Also, it would be nice to find like minded individuals, and possibly get extra assistance. We're gonna need help to cover all bases right?
Edit: Either way, what is the next step? I feel like we're just talking in circles
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Yeah I agree Genesis, ultimately were kind of dead in the water until we find someone who wishes to assist with web design. Electrocaid in regards to "structure" you keep mentioning, are you mentioning the website layout (visual) or the system of how the members of this project would be able to provide news (technical)? If we want to make this simple as possible we can just go Blog style and it would solve the issue of who can post news.
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I'm gonna ask a friend to see if they would be interested on the web design front (and site ultimately since they are a creator)
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good idea because, i've said hereabove, i don't think that i know someone able to help us for that
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I spoke to him. He agreed on helping but he has a couple of suggestions/requirements/conditions.
I doubt Electrocaid or MudJellyfish know I'm admin at clubsyn but I spoke to my friend and co-admin NGeo. He suggested we kinda help each other. CSX has a database that's pretty limited right now since we've been slow on adding entries (there's no rush right now) but since we're gonna be a news site anyway, for everything reported we can add them to the database and keep track of whats online and offline, and where to get them/where they were once.
At the moment, the database isnt 100% complete but you can add entries with:
- Name
- Author
- Website
- Game of Origin
- Creation type
- Mugen version
- Resolution Type
- Online/Offline
When you hover over the creation name, you can see a preview of it.
When the database is 100% finished, you can keep track on submitted entries based on user and database mods/admins can make changes when needed. If anything, we'd probably make a special rank for UAO admins so they make changes/add stuff. Im not too good on the site coding front so idk if its possible to just use the accounts that we'd use for the UAO site.
If you all agree to his terms, he/we would also talk to Syn to give the News site it's own space on the server(which btw has a LOT of memory that can be used, and also give a lot of creative freedom with what we can do with the site). He would build the site with SMF to make a custom portal for the site which would be simple to maintain and edit. We could disable the forum part since we aren't aiming for that, but at the same time have the option to implement one if we want to.
He asked me to ask you guys to come to the chat and we can discuss but i explained our timezones are too different, so i can just send messages back and forth.
So what do you guys think? I obviously am up for the idea but you guys might not be.
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Dear Friend and Respect Friend.
First, I am poor at English.
Please understand.
I support activity of "PERFECT-SELECT".
because This is ONLY and great work in the mugen world.
I am not opposed to new activity.
However, a question will be borne if "PERFECT-SELECT" decline.
Mr. Reuben kee left Dragonclaw.
What do we leave?
I guess I was just exaggerating.
but Rome was not built in a day.
and
Nothing is as important as health
hahaha! 8)
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@Genesis, you have officially laid the foundation and all the parts for UAO. Count me in for the support. If only we all had some better form of communication.
Mud Jellyfish your English is fine my friend :). You would be very important in the success of UAO. I'm sure that this project would not be the end of PERFECT-SELECT as long there is help. We will have to see what happens first.
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This will not be the end of PERFECT-SELECT, I don't believe so.
Mud Jellyfish, your English is fine ;D
Health is very much important!
@Everyone: I spoke to Syn myself, he's ok with everything.
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Hi everyone My name is SyN.
Genesis presented me with you guys idea for a news site.
I have plenty of space on my server. btw its a dedicated server.
Specs are:
Core i7 2600
8gb-ddr3 ddr3 RAM
500GB SATA-II
500GB SATA-II
4 TB monthly bandwidth
I have tons of server space and our monthly bandwidth barley goes over 200gb so there is no worries as far as bandwidth issues, I have more than enough.
I am familiar with html, php, javascript and css.
I would love to be the host and be affiliated with you guys news idea.
I can develop a news script that uses php and a mysql database connection for posting,updated,editing information.
Pretty much everything I develop for my place that's custom and for certain groups to have access to it, I make custom groups in my personal chatroom for the site which allows only that group with the correct privileges to monitor or admin any part of my site for instance I have a group that maintains the mugen database, the chat, has access to private beta testing materials, etc. I can do this as well for the new group.
This is just me asking but its not a requirement but if you guys are willing to allow me to set this up for yall and be the home of this fantastic idea. would it be possible to set this up on my index page where it will be the first thing everyone sees when visiting the club syn site?
Of if you guys wanted a web link with whatever your group name is then its fine as well.
Either or I would be happy to have you all around and this new idea as well as being your host.
Thank you.
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ohohoooo
it's becoming the "post-to-be" here ;D
i'm happy to welcome new celebrities on our little forum
by order:
@Genesis: no, i didn't know about :P .... excellent suggestion: having a "web" base is better than nothing & i don't know if it's possible to "merge" it with the perfect select... which is constantly updated... Furthermore, the perfect select doesn't contain all the details of your database... ---> i totaly agree with your proposal. For communicating: whatever as long as we can know where to write ;)
@Mud Jellyfish: i'll keep updating the perfect select in all cases... simply because it's the true select.def of my mugen game, the mugen museum... ;D BTW, wouldn't your own database be useful to the project? :)
@scourgesplitter: very very pleased to count you among us :)
@ClubSyN-X-TReME: your presence here is a kind of crossover itself ! ---> for sure you're welcome aboard: the more we'll be, the better results we'll have. Thanks a lot for your kind support: it seems that you have the project's necessary ressources & i think that no one here will vote against your idea :D For me, you can advance in the suggested way: your question appeals a very positive answer from me 8)
According to all these explanations, what do you all think my friends?
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Ok cool. Lets see what others have to say before making preparations.
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No objections on my part. In fact I'm honored to work amongst you fellas. SyN thank you for this opportunity you are giving to us.
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another stupid idea: wouldn't it be useful to write directly to some communities' "leaders", for inviting them to read this post?
i've in mind:
- Nunor from the guild: a very moderated friend
- Zombiebrocks from MFFA, with who i've already been got in touch
Good?/not good?
If good, other trustful persons to suggest?
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I think Nunor would be a great idea!
ZombieBrock is a friend of mine, no problem with him being around.
As you've said, the more the merrier right? :)
I'm not sure who else we could invite...
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@Mud Jellyfish: i'll keep updating the perfect select in all cases... simply because it's the true select.def of my mugen game, the mugen museum... ;D BTW, wouldn't your own database be useful to the project? :)
Dear friend.
I think you already know this,
There is not nothing much I can do for you,
but,
infomation at my Homepage, you can use.
if you have a perplexed question,
Send to private message for me.
Thank you friend! :)
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Ok folks. I can come up with a draft but anyone has an idea of how this new page going to be laid out?
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Well, I was under the impression we would have something similar to the old mugen news sites, but perhaps a fresh
er idea might be good too
How complicated would it be to have a little interactive box that has a preview of the last 5 updates/reports with a picture?
Like, if I reported Char A, Stage A, Char B, Screenpack A, and Char C; could the little box display a pic of Char A, and have arrows that let you shift through the last 5 reported items?
To get a better idea of what i mean, something like what 2diyer has now
(http://i.imgur.com/vz13hgC.png)
Unlike 2diyer, when you click the news article/report, it wont take you to a forum post, but the news post instead.
Perhaps below it, another 5 reported releases
On the right hand side, an "archive" of previously reported releases, a RSS feed button, and a link to the database?
Left I suppose for site navigation, a button to enter CSX, and affiliate links?
Now my questions to everyone:
-Should 4 images be the standard for whenever a release gets reported?
-Can we/should we have a filter for report type?
Similar to how sites like MFG have filters for creation type.
-Would we report miscellaneous mugen news as well?
Like "'Creator A' who is working on 'Character A' just posted new shots and details about their WIP"
"Update for 'Creation X' is in the works according to post by 'Author A'
-"'Author A' has posted a teaser shot of 'Character A', is it a WIP?"
Things like that.
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I think Nunor would be a great idea!
ZombieBrock is a friend of mine, no problem with him being around.
As you've said, the more the merrier right? :)
I'm not sure who else we could invite...
i've written to both...
right ;)
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@Mud Jellyfish: i'll keep updating the perfect select in all cases... simply because it's the true select.def of my mugen game, the mugen museum... ;D BTW, wouldn't your own database be useful to the project? :)
Dear friend.
I think you already know this,
There is not nothing much I can do for you,
but,
infomation at my Homepage, you can use.
if you have a perplexed question,
Send to private message for me.
Thank you friend! :)
It's very generous my friend, thanks ;)
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Ok folks. I can come up with a draft but anyone has an idea of how this new page going to be laid out?
the best newsite of all (mugen) times for me:
http://www.freewebs.com/sammas/oldnews.htm
---> complete & straight to the point ;)
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Well, I was under the impression we would have something similar to the old mugen news sites, but perhaps a fresher idea might be good too
How complicated would it be to have a little interactive box that has a preview of the last 5 updates/reports with a picture?
Like, if I reported Char A, Stage A, Char B, Screenpack A, and Char C; could the little box display a pic of Char A, and have arrows that let you shift through the last 5 reported items?
To get a better idea of what i mean, something like what 2diyer has now
(http://i.imgur.com/vz13hgC.png)
Unlike 2diyer, when you click the news article/report, it wont take you to a forum post, but the news post instead.
Perhaps below it, another 5 reported releases
On the right hand side, an "archive" of previously reported releases, a RSS feed button, and a link to the database?
Left I suppose for site navigation, a button to enter CSX, and affiliate links?
Now my questions to everyone:
-Should 4 images be the standard for whenever a release gets reported?
-Can we/should we have a filter for report type?
Similar to how sites like MFG have filters for creation type.
-Would we report miscellaneous mugen news as well?
Like "'Creator A' who is working on 'Character A' just posted new shots and details about their WIP"
"Update for 'Creation X' is in the works according to post by 'Author A'
-"'Author A' has posted a teaser shot of 'Character A', is it a WIP?"
Things like that.
the form is good for me
things would be clear & direct
my answers, by order:
- 1 image is enough
- we are supposed to be the filters, lol ---> admins are part of "trust's circle" ;)
- all mugen related news (i mean releases) are good to be reported, that's the purpose of the project ;D (a larger specter of activities would be too hard [& not so useful]) ---> a released wip is a release: a mugen shot isn't the release of a mugen creation... (but a misc. release, like the recent interactive mugen is the release of a mugen data)
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Yes something detailed like this would be very nice.
As for your questions.
1) The use of 4 images seems to be a little excessive. At most 2 would be fine.
2) A filter would definitely be useful rather than having to rummage through all the other unrelated old news if one were to be interested in finding out the exact date at which a specific creation was released.
3) I'd say I'm not too sure about this one. Everyone here should know that creators do not stand 100% by their word when it comes to something being released at a certain date in time. I think we should just stick to releases but, thats just what I think. On the other hand we can have a rumors section, maybe not immediately but sometime later on when we get used to the workload everyone shares.
On another note heres the status of a few members I've asked to join.
1) V-Nix (Unavailable)
2) Phantom Blood (No response yet)
3) Magic Toaster & Ryoucchi (Unavailable)
We need to figure out who else could possibly step up to the plate.
Have we heard from Nunor or Zbrock yet?
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I will say this, my job "real life" gets in the way but I am happy and I will share my server resources and develop the news script to get things going, so dont worry about that.
I see the ideas you all are going for, ok but still we need a bit of originality IMO where it wont look like a clone site of another site.
1. one or two images would be better
2. Filteres are no problem
3. releases or maybe information about project that pretty much that almost the entire community are looking forward to, for instance elecbyte releases something or virtualtek releases something. etc
Just my thoughts.
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Ok so everyone seems to be in agreement for 1-2 images per report
When i said 4, i meant small pictures :P
@electrocaid: I know we are the filters, but if a user uses our site to find the latest stages or screenpacks, it would be beneficial to them to be able to filter out characters and such
I wasn't 100% sure about the misc. releases, and it seems its not necessary.On the other hand we can have a rumors section, maybe not immediately but sometime later on when we get used to the workload everyone shares.
I actually really like this idea. This could be something that's different. I dont know any other mugen related site that does this
Of course there arent a huge amount of rumors so maybe we could update this monthly?
@SyN: I agree. I was using the 2diyer thing as an example of how with would function but not for how it should look.
This goes to everyone, what could we do to have a different, yet simple look/layout for the site?
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ahaaha
about the filters, i didn't think to search filters: about these, for sure it's a good idea to include them (&/or a search engine)
what could we do to have a different, yet simple look/layout for the site?
well: a kind of RSS signal displayed on main page + newsemails for subscribers? :)
about Nunor & Zombiebrocks ---> i've simply invited them to read the post & i haven't received an answer by email (but after 48 hours only)
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http://www.2diyer.com/forum.php?mod=forumdisplay&fid=14&page=1 IS BACK!!!